Striving to Feel Unique (Enneagram Type Four)

Creek: 00:01

Welcome back to another episode of Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. My name is Creek and along with me are two wonderful co-hosts, María José and Mario Sikora. How are y'all doing? What's poppin? As the kids say.

María José: 00:17

It's really warm here in Chile. Summer is, yeah, it's hot. So.

Creek: 00:24

And in Celsius, it’s…

María José: 00:26

I see that you're, like, 37 this week.

Mario: 00:28

Wow.

Creek: 00:29

37. That’s… Whoa. 98.

Mario: 00:31

That's like the 60 degrees or something. Wow.

Creek: 00:35

Gosh.

Mario: 00:37

Yeah, that’s hot.

Creek: 00:38

No, thank you. That's really hot. Yeah.

María José: 00:41

It is. And just picture Santa Claus here dressed as he’s dressed at your end.

Mario: 00:47

In a speedo.

María José: 00:48

On your end, but in summer.

Creek: 00:51

Yes. So today, we are talking about something that I feel very, is very dear to me, which is striving to feel unique. And there's just this weird fascination of…

Mario: 01:05

Enneagram Type Four.

Creek: 01:06

Enneagram Type Four. Yes, exactly. There is a fascination in the Enneagram community and those that are getting introduced to the Enneagram community where everyone wants to be a Four. What is that? That's been my experience.

María José: 01:19

Who told you that? What do you mean?

Mario: 01:26

It just goes to show you how our populations are sort of self-selecting. So yeah, interesting.

Creek: 01:33

Has that been your experience?

Mario: 01:35

No, no. Not in my world. No.

María José: 01:38

I do know that nobody wants to be a One, but not that everybody wants to be a Four.

Mario: 01:43

That’s true. That’s true. In my world, everybody wants to be an Eight or a Three, maybe a Seven. But that’s the business world and the grown up world, I guess. I’m just kidding, but no, the superficial people that I hang out with want to be one of those types. Maybe a Nine.

Creek: 02:03

Right? Yes, that you have to dumb down the Enneagram to. Yeah.

Mario: 02:08

Yeah, exactly right.

María José: 02:07

So Creek, how did you feel the time prior to this session when you were thinking about recording Type Four episode?

Creek: 02:20

Weirdly, I'm like, I hope I can represent that corner of the Enneagram well, and like am I going to say it right in some way? Yeah, I don’t know.

Mario: 02:32

Because if you don’t, Creek, if you don't, the Four police will come after us. That’s for sure.

Creek: 02:38

Yes, and I will be shamed for not being unique enough.

Mario: 02:44

And people will start to say, well, he's not really a Four.

Creek: 02:47

Exactly.

María José: 02:48

People will say that anyway.

Creek: 02:50

Yeah.

Mario: 02:51

And I can attest, knowing Creek, my view is that you're a Four.

Creek: 02:56

I don't think anyone who spends any amount of time with me would doubt that. It's strong. So I guess, let's get the official Awareness to Action approach. And then I'll distinguish myself from that to what is striving to feel unique.

Mario: 03:17

So whenever we talk about the Four, I always think of the one true Scotsman logical fallacy. The one true Scotsman logical fallacy is the assertion all Scotsman love whiskey. And somebody says, Well, you know, McGregor doesn't like whiskey. And the response is, well, he's not a real Scotsman. So it's if somebody doesn't fit your criteria, then you, rather than questioning your criteria, you dismiss the example.

And I see a lot of that with Fours, because there are these views of Fours being either super intense and super angry and some kind of outcast. It's somebody who has like a day job. Well, how could they be a Four if they're a salesperson or accountant or attorney or something like that.

María José: 04:12

Let alone be the leader of the team. I mean, that just can’t be a Four.

Mario: 04:17

Right. Or a CEO of a company. You know, no CEO, a CEO couldn't be a Four. The reality is that Fours come in all shapes and sizes, but what they share, and this is our criteria for all the types. We’ve got these nine strategies, and we call somebody a Four because of all nine of the strategies the one that they non-consciously used the most, is this one we call striving to feel unique. And this is this inner sense that I am different from other people. And I need to explore that sense of being different and assert that sense of being different. And the degree to which I assert it or different people assert it will vary in a lot of different ways.

Because some people, they may have a need to be very assertive about asserting how different they are. And other people will be much more subtle about it. And where they do it depends on their instinctual bias. So Preserving Fours will be focused on their environment, expressing how my taste is different, the way I prepare my home or decorate my home is different from others. Navigating Fours will be focused on their identity, and Transmitting Fours will be focused on what they create in some way.

María José: 05:40

Primarily, it could be a combination, but…

Mario: 05:45

Of course, yes. Yes, you're right. Good point, María José. I'm talking about emphasis, not exclusivity. So every Four will express all of those things, but depending on the instinctual bias, there will be bias towards one of those areas over the other two.

Creek: 06:01

So I imagine in a work environment, the place where you will do a lot of your Enneagram training and whatnot, the Four that finds himself in a more business setting is probably not the same Four that you see attending normal Enneagram events. Would that be correct?

Mario: 06:16

Yeah, although I think that, to some extent, applies to all the types, quite frankly. I think that most of the people who go to Enneagram conferences or Enneagram workshops are not the average corporate citizen. It doesn’t mean that…

María José: 06:35

You were hoping. You were hoping we would say yes. Fours are different. But no.

Mario: 06:41

This is one of the reasons why some of the descriptions of different Enneagram types, particularly the Four, but not exclusively, are skewed to the kinds of populations that attend self-help workshops. Lots of therapists, for example, lots of people in helping professions, and so forth. Lots of consultants, lots of coaches, on and on. Why? Because it's harder for people with 9-to-5 jobs to get a week off to go to a workshop or something like that.

So it helps to see people of all the types in their natural environment, and not just Enneagram workshops and draw our assumptions about the types from there. But I've met Fours who do all sorts of jobs: realtors, attorneys, accountants, on and on. Will they still be Four-ish in the way that they carry out those jobs? Absolutely. They'll put a little bit of twist on it. They'll try to do a little bit differently. You'll see these flourishes of some kind of creativity or perhaps rebellion against the status quo. But I'd like to say that they're not all purple-wearing, beret-hatted, clove-cigarette-smoking adolescence.

María José: 07:56

I was going to mention that, because of those descriptions, when you see a Four… At least in my experience, when you see a Four in the workplace, it was a bit surprising to me at the beginning to see just regular people dressed as anybody else would resonating with the Four description. And it is, I think, because we don't talk about just artistic things, so the purple thing. It’s just striving to feel unique.

But I could notice my own bias towards kind of expecting more colorful or kind of eccentric styles, when it doesn't need to be the case. I remember one guy, remember the guy in Egypt, who said that his way of expressing the Four was assembling the Ikea furniture in a different way, not just like, the instructions said, but differently, you know.

Mario: 09:02

And that guy was he was an academic at a university in Egypt, very straight-laced, suit-wearing guy, right. But as the training went on, it started to become very clear to us and to himself, that he was a Four, but you wouldn't have picked them out of a crowd, which is what I think we often expect when it comes to Fours.

Creek: 09:27

So in more of those, I guess, business corporate settings is the emotionality there, that often gets attributed to a Four.

Mario: 09:36

So it's more subtle most of the time. Because you always, again, you have to look at what's demanded of the environment. So me, there are behaviors that are acceptable in the corporate environment that are not acceptable in other places or that are not acceptable in the corporate environment that you might see somewhere else. So, there will be… It tends to express itself more as a slight melancholy than as a deep emotionality.

Now, that will vary, because I'm very convinced that Steve Jobs was a Transmitting Four. And if you read Walter Isaacson's book on Steve Jobs, his emotionality is all throughout the book. I mean, I think that book is a text, a case study in a Transmitting Four. And I can't tell you how many times in the book it would say, Well, Steve Jobs didn't get his way, so he sat in the corner and cried. And I'm not suggesting all Fours do that, but I'm just saying that he is a more extreme example of the emotionality that somebody who wasn't Founder and CEO of the company wouldn't feel as comfortable expressing. So it tends to be more muted very often.

María José: 10:51

So Creek, I have a question for you. In this attempt or desire to feel unique, my experience with Fours is that they have this tendency to compare themselves to other people, and because that's the way to check that I'm different. How to you experience that?

Creek: 11:10

Lots of different ways. So walking into a room, and this brings up some navigating things, but immediately, I'm noticing how I'm different from other people. And then after that it, am I superior or inferior to them. And then if it starts going too far one way, then it'll be like, it's like superior inferiority, or inferior superiority. Like just constantly finding more and more distinctions.

Like if I'm in Nashville, I've been mistaken for people before, because I'm dressed like every other Nashvillian down there. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, Oh, yeah, but… Like, this is how I'm different from everyone else. Because these schmucks, they couldn't do what I do. Like, go on a hike and do really tough physical things. They’re sipping their lattes and and then when I'm in the sticks, like I am now, I'm like, oh, they don't appreciate good lattes, or a cortado. There's always just this finding another way to be better than or just different from you don't know what it's like to feel this, or to be challenged in this way. Yeah, does that answer that question?

María José: 12:36

It does. And in the be challenged. Can you say more about that? So do you feel that you've got it tougher? Or what do you mean by challenged in this case?

Creek: 12:46

Well, I think there's just a predisposition or bias towards… Yeah, just thinking that you have the worst situation. It doesn't happen as much anymore, just because I've worked through some of that. So, I’m trying to think back to older situations where that was more prevalent, but yeah, I think a lot of times Fours feel like they're the most tapped into reality because they see more of the darkness of life.

Depths do contain darkness, but just because you're tapped into darkness doesn't mean you're tapped into depth. And there's a false equivalent-ation between darkness and depth. And when you're obsessed about what's missing and what's wrong, then you find all the different ways things are wrong. And then that makes you feel like you have a corner on the market of what's real. And all these other schmucks don't know what's going on actually.

Mario: 13:44

What you're describing is very common to Fours. And you're right, it's a Navigating Four sort of mindset, the walking into the room thing and the back and forth, and up and down, because I think María José and I would both say, when we walk into a room, we have a similar sort of thing. I know, for me, it only goes one way. How I’m superior and so forth.

María José: 14:09

How much lower is everyone else?

Creek: 14:13

Well, the point of like finding inferiority, or is so that I can diminish how they are inferior, so that I can somehow be superior again. Yeah.

Mario: 14:27

You know, for me, the growth for the Four is in realizing that most of what they're doing is just derivative of, you know, say Holden Caulfield in “Catcher in the Rye.” “Catcher in the Rye” is about this boy, teenage boy named Holden Caulfield, who kind of skips out on school and spends a day wandering New York and talking about how phony everybody else is.

And so it's this classic book about teenage angst and finding my identity by pointing out at least to myself how phony and inauthentic everybody else is. And one of the things that always for me is the mark of an immature Four is the Holden Caulfield syndrome, where they're just repeating what every other Four since the beginning of time has done.

Now, Fours aren't the only ones that do this. We talked last time we talked about the Eight, about how Eights go through this process of thinking their their bad asses, and how they can get through life by being mean and gruff. And that just gets boring after a while. I mean, all of us get boring if all we're doing is repeating the fixations of our type. But the path to growth for the Four is, I don't have to show that I'm different.

Creek: 15:51

And I think part of it is because there's such a desire to maintain my distinctiveness and separateness and uniqueness. It's also a way of avoiding vulnerability, and controlling the image to the point where I only want you to see what I want you to see and control the darkness that you see as part of my mysterium.

But what I found is that vacillation between superiority and inferiority is where I create that distinction from which I derive my significance. And then I use that superiority as a substitute for loving myself, and the inferiority as a substitute for loving others just to keep all of that at a distance to maintain that distinct, flawed self.

Mario: 16:41

So that's interesting. You said maintain that distinct, flawed self. So the sense of being flawed is actually kind of comforting, it sounds like.

Creek: 16:52

Yeah, there's a ton of layers on this, but that distinct flawed self gives me not only an excuse for when I mess up, right? It gives me on some level of reason for people to chase after me. Not only am I distinct, but I'm flawed. And people feel some sort of drawn—makes me feel icky just talking about it—but it has this sense of like, rescue me on some level, and people like to feel good when they rescue someone. So there's just kind of sort of drawing close and then pushing away.

I'm actually… I'm writing a song for the new album right now where the chorus is, Get closer to me, but at an arm's length. And that's just the whole dance.

Mario: 17:39

So where can people get this album?

Creek: 16:40

Yeah, well, I mean, it's not out yet, but there is music on Spotify and all the other places.

María José: 17:46

My kids really it.

Creek: 16:47

You don’t, but your kids do. Got it. Okay.

María José: 17:51

I do, too. I do, too. I thought it would make you feel even more special than a teenager in Chile would listen to your music.

Creek: 17:57

That’s true.

Mario: 17:59

Seth Creekmore. He's really big in Chile.

Creek: 18:01

Yeah. Hey. I’ll do a show.

Mario: 18:06

So what you were just talking about there is related to the connecting point at Point Two. So the the strategy at Point Two is striving to feel connected. And according to our way of thinking about it, we’ve talked about this as a support strategy for the Four, that the striving to feel connected serves to reinforce my sense of uniqueness.

If special people love me and take care of me, well, that just reinforces that I'm special. And if average, dull, boring, mundane people love me, that must mean that I'm average, mundane, boring, etc, as well. So there's a rejection of the love of those who are inadequately special.

Creek: 18:50

And with Fours, the fascination with more of the dark side, with more of things that people throw in the trash, it is a gift in that we actually find the gems in the muck. And a lot of artists, people love when people do that with art.

But I think on some level, it's an attempt to make the darkness beautiful, so that you can't attack it. You can't say, like that tortured artist, he made such beautiful art, but he was a bit of a dick. But like, that's okay, because he made such great art. So there's a way to kind of use that as a tool for justifying not being a great person.

Mario: 19:34

I think that all the types do that in their own way. Of relying on this identification with the Enneatype strategy in some way to reinforce their failings as a human being. Ones, you know, saying, Yeah, I know I have high standards, but that's because you people are all screwed up and need somebody with high standards. And if you can't take it, then screw you. All the types do this in some way. Just they do it in different ways.

Creek: 20:06

Right, right. Making the unpalatable things mysterious is a way to gain some level of acceptance without doing the work.

María José: 20:16

So we have the neglected strategy that it's Point One, trying to feel perfect. So what's your relationship with that strategy, Creek?

Creek: 20:26

I would say it shows up a lot in any of the times that I do some sort of creating, whether that's in the kitchen or in the studio. It often paralyzes me in the studio especially, just not knowing how to communicate the emotion perfectly and authentically at the same time. Both something that, like for me lyrics are such a pain to write. I value really great words and really great lyrics, but they're always incomplete and not sufficient to express the thing that I'm trying to express. Sit me down in front of a computer, and let me like play a keyboard, and like create this massive musical soundscape, I can do that all day. But to try to like put something into words just feels terrifying and terrible.

And it's different for different Fours obviously. Some people love the word situation, but that needing all the aspects of a song to be perfect, not only for me, and that there's no longer tension in my chest, because it's not what I want it to be. But also that it makes sense to everyone else makes it to be come a very long process to get something done. I see it show up when I'm cooking. I often just kind of glance at a recipe and then jump in and let intuition guide me. And then when things don’t…

María José: 21:49

When preparing beef stew for instance.

Creek: 21:51

Yes.

Mario: 21:52

I wonder how many episodes we'll get out of the whole beef stew thing.

Creek: 21:56

It's not beef stew. It’s… What is it? I can never say it. The French dish that Julia Child always made.

María José: 22:04

Bourguignon.

Creek: 22:05

There it is. Yeah, if it's not working out, if it's not tasting right, if I mess something up, and I did something out of order, and now it's like it's ugly, or it's just not tasting mind-blowing, then it feels like a failure and I lose the joy of cooking rather quickly.

Mario: 22:25

Fours have a an interesting relationship with the strategy at Point One. Because on the one hand, it's don't expect me to be perfect. Don't you expect me to be perfect. Don't you expect me to follow your rules. Don't you expect me to do it your way.

But when it comes to what I have in mind, or what I want done, it better be right. And you better meet my expectations as well. There can be a real rigidity in Fours and their expectations of others. They can seem very One-ish to other people.

Creek: 23:01

Yeah, I think in some ways that speaks to oftentimes in relationships and being understood seems more important than actually being known. Like, I don't care if you agree with me, as long as you understand me. If I don't feel like you're getting the point, then it just tears me up inside.

Mario: 23:21

And sometimes for Fours, being understood is far more important than understanding others.

Creek: 23:28

Yeah, for sure.

Mario: 23:30

Which can make Fours seem to other people as kind of self-absorbed. Because there is this inwardness that Fours have of what does that mean about me? What does that say about me? How am I feeling about this and so forth that can rub some folks wrong way at times. I don't want to get into being down on Fours.

Creek: 23:52

No, that's fine. We love that.

Mario: 23:55

Yeah, I know. But it also is part of the misrepresentation. Yeah. It's why so many people don't understand Fours or a lot of people don't see Fours outside of a very specific stereotype. First of all, there's always levels of health and maturity. And as we go through life, we grow out of some of our issues and so forth. We become more settled. We become more comfortable with ourselves. The classic virtue of the Four is equanimity, which is balance. And so instead of there being these ups and downs and highs and lows, things sort of evened out more, and that's okay. They start to find the beauty in the more simple things.

And whenever we teach about the Four, we talked about the Japanese concept of wabi-sabi, which is the aesthetic of flawed authenticity. So the Japanese tea cup, for example, is not perfectly round. It's flawed in some way. And to go even a step further, there's the practice of Kintsugi, which is where you crack the tea cup and then fill it with gold. And to show that the part that is cracked is where the authenticity is. That's where the unique thing, because no two cracks are going to be the same. So that that streak of gold will always be different in every cup. These are good qualities to have. I mean, they add flavor to life. They add richness and depth to life.

So I always like to look at the the value that each of these things bring, in addition to how they can be dysfunctional, because there's a lot of talk in the Enneagram world about the dysfunctionality of the types. Oh, their ways of dealing with pain, their ways of protecting ourselves, et cetera. Yes, and they are also positive, active forces as well. The striving for quality of the One is a good thing that they bring to the group. The strength of the Eight is a good thing. And the uniqueness this focus on experience, this focus on richness and difference, creativity is a great gift of Fours.

María José: 26:12

So when you see other Fours, Creek, what do you like about them?

Creek: 26:16

As long as they're generally mature and healthy… Well, I think this is true across the board with any type, like same type interaction, is there's an un… just the unspoken language. One of my dear friends is a Four. And he actually went with me and the other Fathoms guys down and did a retreat a couple of years ago. We got to the cabin, and I was inside cooking, and he was going to be taking photos and whatnot. But we went off on a hike. We came back. He had gone to Goodwill to grab new dishes and things to decorate the table, because the dishes inside the AirBnB were not aesthetic enough.

And just how happy that made me, that someone was anticipating that, thought about that, went out of his way to go buy some dishes, so I could just focus on this, like making the food a rich experience. And he was taking care of the aesthetics as the rich experience. And it was just… we're clicking on that level. It's just someone else to help me make that experience more meaningful and deep and rich and memorable. Yeah, that's what I love is just that sort of commonality, sharing in that desire.

Mario: 27:37

I just want to say too that again, that speaks to the value of the strategy and the people of it. Because what you described there is a way of making experience richer. And when we make our experience richer, it forces us to slow down. It forces us to be present, to notice it, to stop and say, hey, wow, look at this. And let me taste this. Let me experience this. Let me be here for now. And those are great qualities.

Creek: 28:10

I had a friend who's like known me since second grade. He was in town, and he said he doesn't like Scotch. I’m like, alright, we're gonna fix this. We sat down in my studio, and I got out my most expensive bottle.

Mario: 28:24

Barbarian.

Creek: 28:25

Yeah, I know. And we did this whole tasting ritual, where like you dip fingers in the glass, and you rub your hands together, and you smell it. And then you hold it in your mouth. You breathe through your nose, all these things. And then we talk about like, where were you 16 years ago? And then just putting that cask and this whole thing. And he's like, I think I like scotch now. I’m like yes. That’s what I'm here for.

María José: 28:53

No, I was thinking I was thinking that I don't like scotch. And I really doubt that I would get to like it even doing that. But we can try.

Creek: 29:04

Happy happy to. I want to go back real quick. I haven't quite articulated this well enough to know where it kind of fits in the rubric of the Four. But at least in my experience, I have a decently high degree of confidence in my own opinion, even if it's something that I've like, I don't know about that much. Like someone like what do you think about this? Well, what I know like bla bla bla bla, bla blah.

But then stuff that I really know about, like music. I have a very high degree of confidence of what's good and what's not. But then a very low degree in confidence that people are actually going to see, accept and value my opinion and what I'm doing with the music. Is that more of the line to One or is that navigating? What's going on there?

Mario: 29:52

So I think that's common among Fours, a strength of opinion and perspective. And we can call it the connection to One, and see it as just part of the gestalt of the Four. But I would say the same. You know, I would say that about pretty much every Four I've ever met that they have strong feelings about things. And they have a tendency to be passionate about those feelings.

Again, see for me, but one of the downsides to quick labels and stereotypes is to see Fours as a withdrawn type. I see Fours who are really aggressive people. And do they withdraw at times? Yeah, sure. But doesn't everybody else. But for me, they're very vocal in their opinions. And there's this almost aggression in search for authenticity. The word authenticity is, might as well be tattooed on every Four. Of you know, something that they're always looking for.

Creek: 30:59

Actually got it right here. No.

Mario: 31:03

Yeah, we didn't need to see that.

María José: 31:06

Yeah, and I think there's also these tendency to identify with their opinions. There's something about identity there. So you kind of defend it, because you are there. You are, in that opinion, you are in that thought. And that makes it more intense and passionate, but also harder to change in my experience.

Mario: 31:29

Yeah, if they're unwilling to let go of that need to differentiate. And in fact, one of the practices we recommend for Fours is dis-identification, learning to recognize the labels they put on themselves, the identities they put on themselves, and then let go of those. Because again, what you start to see after a while, is that they're grasping on to the same identifications as almost every other Four, which shows that it's not real, and I mean, the path for everybody is to let go of their identification so they can be free.

So opinions about things, but Fours struggle with it a lot. So the reason that they struggle to let go of it, because it does feel so personal for them that giving up an opinion, giving up a point of view, giving up a hobby or an endeavor feels like a death, even more so than it does to other people, I think.

Creek: 32:27

Say a little bit more about that. Like, what's an example? I can think of a few situations, but I'm not sure they entirely match what you're saying.

Mario: 32:34

Yeah. So what we see in Fours is a non-conscious tendency to compare and contrast with others. I'm like this, I'm not like that. I'm not like you, I'm not like you. I'm not like my mother, I'm not like my father, etc. And that I'm not like, or I am this, becomes the core of their sense of self. And again, we all do this, but the Fours have kind of a doctorate in it.

And so learning to let go of that. And what it does is, whenever you're into that loop of comparing or contrasting or grasping, you're really not being authentic. Because if I'm busy comparing myself to somebody else, or contrasting myself with somebody else, then what I'm really doing is reflecting in the ways in which I am like them. Or I fear that I'm like them. You know, I'm not like my father, I'm not like my father. Well, if you're still hung up on that, it means you don't really believe it. So learning to come to peace with that is the path of growth for the Four.

Creek: 33:53

I think there is an adaptive way of using that, where the obsession with becoming like a better thinker, or even who I want to be as a person. Like, what skills do I want to have? Or what role do I want to play in society? It's easier in general to define what you're not in order to finally get to the thing that you want to be.

And so I think I think there's a way to approach that comparing and contrasting without attaching to the notness and seeing what the, I guess, the positive thing that emerges through that comparing and contrasting.

Mario: 34:37

Sure. But notice what you did there. You talked about skills to develop, which is different from identifications. But we can have skills and develop those skills, but not see ourselves as identified by them. It's like a baseball player, for example, who keeps working on their skills. Do you know what baseball is, the two of you? I know that I have these obscure references.

María José: 35:03

No, I don’t. Can you tell me about it?

Mario: 35:05

All right, well. Yeah, okay, so let's say football and we'll talk about that one with their feet.

Creek: 35:10

The American or?

María José: 35:10

Which football? Which football? The real one or the wannabe?

Mario: 35:13

Yeah, the one that's happening in the World Cup,

María José: 35:16

Ok.

Mario: 35:18

So, you know, we can work on our skills, and continue to train, but if we just only identify ourselves as a football player, then we're lost when our careers over. So developing skills is different from an identification. And that's something I certainly applaud. Identify what kind of person do I want to be is different from I'm not this, or I am that, and so forth. Because it allows for motion. It allows for progress whereas these fixed identifications don't.

Creek: 35:58

And it does help you decide, like, how do I want to exist today? Like I don’t… I'm not a big gamer, not against people that do video game stuff. But I know that's not who I want to be and that's not how I want to spend my time. I'd rather go on a hike somewhere. And it's comparing and contrasting towards something that I know fills me up rather than just numbs me out.

Mario: 36:24

Yes, so again, I would argue that you're talking about an activity, and so how I want to spend my time. Now, if you were to start wearing the robe of someone who's a hiker and identify with that, that's kind of different. So the dysfunctional thing is not, you know, it's not dysfunctional to say, well, here's the kind of life I want to live. Here are the kinds of activities I want to pursue. Here's the character I want to have, and be somebody who tells the truth. I want to be somebody who's kind.

Those are not unnecessary identification. Those are just a building of character. But it's when it becomes this psychological trap that holds us in place, that we have a problem. It's not even dysfunctional to say, hey, aesthetics are really important to me. And I want this dinner to be a really special experience, so I'm going to go out and buy a bunch of new plates or something. You know, nothing inherently wrong with that.

María José: 37:27

You really resonate with that experience, Mario. Right?

Mario: 37:30

Yeah, exactly right. Look, you guys have seen me eat. I eat off the table with my hands. So.

María José: 37:39

It's like when I was, and it's funny, because I resonate with that a lot. And it's the line, the relationship to One. I mean, between One and Four. To me, it’s perfect when it's aesthetically pleasant. And remember, when we were out to dinner, and we were preparing that platter, and I had to put everything kind of on that platter in a way that looked good, because it was no pleasure eating it just out of the box. And so there's a similarity there, I think. But it's different. To me, the aesthetics makes it perfect.

Creek: 38:18

If I'm going to riff on that a little bit. Part of me didn't want to go through the effort of figuring out how to make that charcuterie board aesthetic, because it would have taken too much out of me, because I would have obsessed about it being perfect.

María José: 38:35

Like your soul.

Creek: 38:18

Yeah, like I would have had to just like, figure out what is the most best? She's like, no, we just need to eat so we can keep filming. But that's my own things to work through. Is there any other aspects of the Four that we want to we want to hit on to finish out this episode?

Mario: 39:00

So yes. So I think one of the most important things, and at the risk of getting ahead of ourselves related to the core qualities, what’s driving the Four is this feeling of a loss of contact with their inherent individuality. You know, I have four kids. María José has two kids. I don't know what it's like their in Chile, but in the US when a child is born, they clean off the baby, and then they take a footprint. And the reason they take a footprint is because every footprint, like every fingerprint, is unique. And should the babies get mixed up in the maternity ward, they can look at the footprint.

That just goes to show us that every child every human being is a priori, unique, but we start to lose that sense of being an individual, because we start picking up all these messages from our parents, and we start picking up all these messages from our holding environment, all these messages from our social group that we have to identify with, in order to survive as a member of a social species. So the fundamental grappling that a four is doing is trying to get back and to nurture that sense of being inherently individual. And the irony is, of course, is that the only way to really get back in touch with that is to kind of stop trying.

Creek: 40:34

I think it's a Merton quote, Thomas Merton said, the difference between longing and belonging is be. To recognize your own inherent, localized perspective of this crazy universe. And finding how you belong within it as your distinct self is. The work is worth it. It's yeah, it's too lonely. It's too lonely to constantly stay separate from everyone else.

Mario: 41:07

Yeah.

María José: 41:08

Do we think anybody would question if Creek is a Four or not after this episode?

Creek: 41:15

I dare anyone. Oh gosh.

Mario: 41:23

And I just have to ask, did you get that Thomas Merton quote from Seth Abram?

Creek: 41:30

I think it was probably from a podcast or something, but I mean, it's a good guess. Probably.

Mario: 41:39

Love to Seth.

Creek: 41:40

Yes, absolutely.

Mario: 41:42

It sounds like a quote that he would have at the tip of his tongue.

Creek: 41:46

Yes, he has a lot of quotes on the tip of his tongue. Yeah.

Mario: 41:52

And leave that in.

Creek: 41:53

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. As far as we're wrapping this up, let's just hop into some growth strategies for the Four in all of our unique complexities. Mario, what do you got?

Mario: 42:06

I get nothing man. You know, with Fours, I just throw in the towel. No I think, again, it's recognizing that the best way to truly express who we are, the best way to understand who we are, and to be unique in a healthy way is to stop trying so hard, is to kind of relax into it. It's that equanimity thing of, I don't have to show how different I am. I just be, to your point. And the better we get at that, the more our natural, authentic self will show itself, but it'll be a healthier version.

I always like to be careful about this idea of an authentic self, because some people think it's something you have to return to or some back to you sort of thing. No, it's not going back to something. It's the authentic self emerging and developing. It's the reaching of our authentic potential that is the path. And whenever we're trapped in this idea of comparing and contrasting and grasping and envying that we hold ourselves back from flourishing and expressing our full potential.

María José: 43:30

I would also add what we said about thinking that you've gotten tougher, that it's more challenging for you. That belief, I think we all have beliefs that are our biases, given by our type—In the case of Type Four, while striving to feel unique—when you think that your situation is more difficult, tougher, you suffer more.

And it is a misrepresentation of reality. And my experience is that Fours who are able to see that and be more objective about situations they're in, have a better time responding to it. I mean, they're more adaptive, because they see more I said objectively, and they suffer less.

Mario: 44:23

I will add something, María José. Something you said there made me think of this idea of envy. I remember years ago when I think it was before I got married, have a friend who was a Four and we were out at a bar one night, and he had had a bit to drink, and at one point he just said…

María José: 44:41

How much?

Mario: 44:23

It was a fair amount. I was just drinking Diet Coke and seltzer water, at one point he turns to me and says, I am so jealous of you. You have a great life and I've got a shitty life. And I wish I had your this. And I wish I had your that and blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking to myself, Man, oh man, but you're you're missing the big picture here because my life ain't so great. Yeah, it was better than his. But it wasn’t something particularly to strive for.

Fours have this tendency to almost romanticize their own suffering and idealize the lives of others. And that causes that envy of I want what you have, and I'm angry that I don't have it, so I come up with all these reasons to reject and to wallow in my misery. But to actually practice real empathy, and understand the other person's life and their experience and what they're going through and how they're suffering is a good experience and a good practice for Fours, because they realize that they don't have… They haven't cornered the market on suffering.

Creek: 45:57

Something of one of Michael Naylor who's a, he's an addictions counselor and Enneagram teacher up in Maine. He told me once that the other side of the coin of envy is admiration. And so obvious now, but when he said it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I mean, wow, okay. It's me envying someone who I admire is just sucking all the joy out of how awesome their life is and the potential that I have to get there, whatever that means.

I guess, to my fellow Fours out there, all I would say is remember that emotions are feedback, not failure. And that depth and profundity is always in front of you. You just have to be brave enough to see it.

Mario: 46:51

I have that written on a coffee mug, oddly enough.

Creek: 46:55

Those exact words? Okay.

Mario: 47:00

Thanks for representing the Four to us, Creek.

Creek: 47:02

Absolutely.

Creek: 47:07

Thanks for listening to the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. If you're interested in more information or talking to Mario, MJ or myself, feel free to reach out to us through the links in the show notes or by emailing info@awarenesstoaction.com. All episode transcriptions and further information can be found at awarenesstoaction.com/podcast.