Striving to Feel Powerful (Enneagram Type Eight)

Creek: 00:01

Welcome to another episode of the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. My name is Creek. And today, we're talking about the Type Eight today. And you may be wondering why are we jumping to the Eight? Well, it's because we wanted to make sure that we have someone on that represents the number to kind of get at je ne sais quoi of that number as they speak. So, Mario, you're an Eight. This is correct, yeah?

Mario: 00:33

Yes, I lead with Eight. I do Eight. I, you know, whatever people like to say with this, right?

Creek: 00:41

Great. What's your origin story? Why did you become an Eight? Why’d you choose Eight?

María José: 00:48

What did you have with that coffee, Creek?

Mario: 00:50

Yeah, really. Well, look, I looked at all the descriptions of the nine types.

María José: 00:58

And it was the coolest.

Mario: 00:59

Why would anyone else in their right mind want to be anything other than this one?

So, look, it's funny when I was first introduced to the Enneagram in '94, I did take an assessment that was an assessment in Riso/Hudson's book, "Discovering the Enneagram" or something, I forget what the title of it was. And I scored as an Eight, and I started reading that chapter. And I said, yeah, that's it. And nobody who knows me has ever thought otherwise. You know, there have been...

Creek: 01:34

What have been the other guesses?

Mario: 01:35

Oh, I had some some wackadoodle folks in France, who never met me or anything, analyzed my writings and said that I was a Sexual One. One time…

María José: 01:48

You've had Two, I think. Six.

Mario: 01:52

Yeah, one time one Enneagram teacher floated that I was a Six for about five minutes.

Creek: 02:00

Five. You’ve gotten Five as well, right?

Mario: 02:02

Yeah, I've gotten "No, you're kind of Five-ish in some ways," which I am and well we'll talk about why as we talked about the Eight.

María José: 02:08

You've also got...

Mario: 02:09

María José, you've known me a long time.

María José: 02:11

You've also got, you're definitely not a Eight, because your chin is not broad enough or something.

Mario: 02:18

Oh, yeah. That was the other good one. Yeah. Because Eights invariably have big chins, and, you know.

María José: 02:26

So I've known you for a long time. What were you going to say?

Mario: 02:30

Well, you know. Have you have you ever pressure tested another hypothesis regarding my type?

María José: 02:35

No need.

Creek: 02:38

Very, very obvious.

Mario: 02:41

It’s because I've done work on myself. Because usually, people say, Well, you know, I'm this type, but I don't look like it because I've done work on myself.

Creek: 02:49

Well see, I didn't know you in your younger years. So I think meeting you in person, the few times that I have, like there isn't, I think I'm just used to Eights being portrayed as just these really huge, like, big energy, in your face, constantly...

Mario: 03:15

Bossing everybody around.

Creek: 03:16

And that's not you.

Mario: 03:18

It's not me. And it's not most Eights. I mean, it just like with María José, every moment you're not slapped in the face by her Oneness. And this is what happens with all of us with these Enneatypes.

The Enneatypes are things that express themselves, or more noticeable when we're acting out in some way. When we're not at our best and so forth. It's easier to see somebody's type when they're under stress. And when they're at their best, or when they're at, typically, you see it sometimes and other times you don't because they're just being normal, so to speak.

María José: 03:59

Yes. And I think it also has to do with the subtypes. And most people... Kind of the stereotypical Eight is the Transmitting Eight, not the Navigating Eight as Mario is. And so there's a, kind of, like more gentleness or that it’s, because it's not kind of forcing things almost physically, but he is in his mind forcing things anyway but differently.

Creek: 04:29

Does the word gentleness, does that rub against you at all or not? Or is that something is...

Mario: 04:35

No, you know, look, it's something I aspire to. I don't get some kick out of demonstrating my Eightness all the time. You know, when I work with Eights who are clients and they pride themselves in being an asshole. That's my preferred term.

Creek: 04:54

Also, fair warning. It's an Eight episode. There's gonna be some language in this one.

Mario: 04:59

We're gonna earn our explicit rating this time.

Creek: 05:02

Yes.

Mario: 05:04

I always tell them being an asshole so easy. I mean, anybody can be a jerk. And I'm really good at it. I used to be really, really good at it, but there's no challenge in that. I mean, it's not something I aspire to. I try to be nice to people, and a lot of times people will be surprised. Oh, you’re actually nice. Great, give me an award or something for being a decent human being once in a while.

Creek: 05:39

Is that frustrating to kind of always be painted in that way?

Mario: 05:43

No. It's boring it's what it is. And it's understandable. I mean, a lot of people… So we talked about biases last time, and certainly Eights have reputation. And a lot of that is because I know a lot of Enneagram teachers who had Eight parents, and they weren't great parents. And so they carry the wounds of that. Or they were in relationships with Eights. And suffered abuse or whatever it is. And so, that's the takeaway, right? That's my experience of the Eight. There are a lot of Eights out there who do those things and cause that.

And one of the problems with being an Eight or one of the problems with Eight-ness is that their dysfunction is usually directed outward in some way. Whereas a Four or a One, or some of the other types will suffer inwardly. María José talked about last time how, you know, oh, it's a lot worse for the One, right? That's not that way for the Eight. It's gonna be worse for you. Okay.

Creek: 06:58

Let me be clear.

Mario: 06:58

When I am having my thing. Yeah, let me be clear. No, this is going to hurt you more than it hurts me. So a lot of people carry the scars of that, and it becomes the reputation. And so that precedes it. And quite frankly, I look at my own life, and there are reasons why people flinch sometimes when I go by. I mean I've liked to think I've grown but I've left my share of bruises out there.

Creek: 07:27

Is there a moment or collection of moments that were kind of more of a wake up call for moving into not always externalizing that pain?

Mario: 07:39

Well, let's see. So, I want to be clear that even as a child, I had my nice moments, where there was always this element of, you know, and we see this about Eights. I remember them seeing them once described as a teddy bear inside of a grizzly bear sort of thing. So there's both sides of this, and even with the most aggressive, hostile Eights, they'll have these moments of kindness and gentleness and so forth. It's just this dichotomy of the character.

So I don't know for me that there was ever a road to Damascus moment where I tried to become a different person. It was just over time realizing that life's easier when you're nice to people. You know one thing does stand out, and again, this wasn't a turning point, but it captured it nicely. One of my all time favorite movies is Harvey with Jimmy Stewart. It's about the six-and-a-half foot tall, invisible rabbit named Harvey, that only Jimmy Stewart can see. It's a wonderful movie. It's really an amazing movie.

And the Jimmy Stewart character at one point says to somebody, you know, my mother told me when I was a kid, you can either be really nice, or you can be really smart. It's easier to be nice. So I try to do that, and know that when that's not working, I always have something else to fall back on if I need it.

María José: 09:09

So I was thinking about kind of the logic or how the Eightness manifests, and I think that it's just so limited to think that Eights are angry or pushy or like that all the time. I think that if you leave them alone in their domains, and there's no threat, there's no need to push, they will be just like anybody else. And caring and wanting to help other people grow and challenging them. But when it comes to defending your kind of boundaries, it’s just they start being pushy or fighting or all of that. But it portraying them as like they're always on that mode, I think it is too limited.

Mario: 10:06

So the strategy is striving to feel powerful, right? And power can be interpreted lots of different ways. And sometimes it is, when it's being played out in a maladaptive way, it is this need to control others to dominate and so forth. When we're under stress, when we're not healthy, it takes the form of domination. But it's really about how do I be capable? How do I be powerful? How do I get the things done that need to get done around me?

In the last episode, I made the comment that I always see people in terms of their utility. And the two of you gasped, and they were gasps of horror throughout podcastland, I'm sure, as people listen to that, but it really is the first starting point. Because that is power. How do I use this person? Now, what has happened as I have grown is that I have learned to find the utility in people who may not otherwise be seen as having utility. I see almost everybody as having something of value that they can bring to the world. So I'm kinder to people who I might have dismissed otherwise, because they weren't useful.

So I always tell Eights, and I've tried to follow this myself that the journey of the Eight is you can think of in theological terms. Step number one is mercy. I should kill you, but I won't. You deserve punishment, but I won't issue it. Mercy is the Merciful God of the Old Testament. I will not smite thee.

The second step is grace. And grace is the gift undeserved. You haven't done anything wrong, but you haven't done anything, and I'm going to be nice to you anyway. So, the cross was God's act of grace toward the sinner. And then the third step is magnanimity. Where you've now sort of taken on a feeling of, if not real, responsibility for the domain, whatever that domain is. The people I care about, the people that I've worked with, my community and so forth. So the magnanimous King is the kind of the kind ruler and that's the journey that the Eight needs to go on. And once in a while, I'll make a little progress there.

Creek: 12:45

Can you give me an example of that progression? Maybe in like the same scenario. Like what is it Magnette… Magnin? Magnanimous? mag?

Mario: 12:55

Magnanimous.

Creek: 12:56

Wow. Magnanimous.

Mario: 12:57

Too many Gs in that word.

Creek: 12:59

What's an example of an active magna… No, okay.

María José: 13:06

Magnanimity.

Creek: 13:11

What is an example of magnanimity? And what's the difference between that and mercy? Like in a practical sense and an everyday sense.

Mario: 13:25

So magnanimity involves going out of your way to think big picture and do good to bring about that big picture. So you know the Magnum is the king. The Magnus, the king, okay, so it's the top person. So the king has this responsibility for the kingdom. So I have to look out at the needs for everyone and act… I'm talking about the king here, not Mario, to look at…

María José: 14:01

Who are you trying to fool, Mario?

Mario: 14:04

It's an audio medium, María José. People don't see that look on your face, but yeah, they can probably infer it from the reaction.

María José: 14:08

Well that’s why I’m talking.

Mario: 14:15

It's this looking out and saying okay, I am responsible for the outcome here. Whether I literally am or not, the Eight feels that. And so sometimes, because they feel responsible for the outcome, they get aggressive. They become hostile. They punish the one who interferes with the desired outcome. As they move into the Mercy phase, it's okay you interfered with this and I really should make you pay for it, but I'm just gonna let it slide. I'm gonna move on. Grace is again, the gift.

So the magnanimity is just seeing everything in the bigger picture. And taking the chessboard approach to things of, okay, this needs to happen. We can say that the mercy piece is I'm not going to gratuitously kill all your pawns before I put you into checkmate.

Creek: 15:13

Yeah, so it's not… So mercy is the first step towards magnanimity? I can’t say the word.

Mario: 15:21

Magnanimity, yes. You know what, in post production, just get it right once and then just cut it in each time.

Creek: 15:34

M-word. Yes, gosh.

Mario: 15:38

Yeah. So one of the common things that we think about with Eights, if we look at kind of the traditional Enneagram, Ichazo called it ego vengeance. And that vengeance thing comes from a need to equal the playing field or put me on top. So you have bettered me in some way and done me wrong, or whatever it is, and so I am going to get my vengeance on you. That's the fixation of the Eight.

It was funny, because I was watching late in life, Naranjo said so you know, I thought a lot about this, and I don't think that vengeance is the issue for the Eight. I'm thinking, Man, you got that wrong. No, I mean, because that is the driving force for Eight in a dysfunctional way. So mercy is the ability to set aside that need for vengeance. To say, okay, I don't need to get my revenge here.

María José: 16:45

Yeah, but I would add to that, that probably a way in which I feel more powerful. I feel more powerful if I can look at the bigger picture and not take revenge than what I would feel how I would feel if I took revenge. So it's not like you're just dismissing this need to feel powerful. It's another way broader, more flexible way of feeling powerful.

Mario: 17:13

Smarter. Yeah, it's a smarter, more efficient way. You’re right. That need to feel powerful never goes away. And so when I hear people tell Eights, oh, just be vulnerable. Don't feel like you need to be powerful all the time, I think yeah, you're spitting in the wind there. It's just how can you define more adaptive, functional, healthy ways to feel powerful, like María José is describing.

Creek: 17:38

So vengeance is just a distorted form of power. You're trying to affect something in front of you to feel some semblance of control. And vengeance is a way of doing that, that feels powerful.

Mario: 17:52

Yeah, and it can be something simple. I'm in a hurry on the highway, and you get ahead of me. Well, I'll show you. I'm gonna get ahead of you. You know, that kind of thing. That can be a form of vengeance. It doesn't need to be some blood oath that I swear. I’m gonna dance on your grave sort of thing. It can be something really simple.

If you insult me or if you make a joke at my expense, I can take vengeance by insulting you back, but more so, you know, kind of thing. So it takes a little, it takes subtle forms. And the path for the Eights is just let go of that. Somebody makes a joke at your expense, you laugh at it. You move on.

Creek: 18:37

There's a particular Eight that I have in mind that—Transmitting Eight—he occasionally shows mercy, but then like fantasizes of the ways that he could be vengeful. And so I'm just like, I guess at the very least be merciful, right? That's the spectrum there between those two, right? Or is it like mercy is you can still have a fully adaptive healthy showing mercy or is magnummid… I can’t… Mag… Say it one more time.

Mario: 19:14

Magnin, Magnanimity.

Creek: 19:17

Magnanimity.

María José: 19:17

No. No.

Creek: 19:18

I think part of it is my nose.

Mario: 19:25

You get it wrong.

María José: 19:21

Magnanimity.

Mario: 19:23

Magna-nim-i-ty.

Creek: 19:28

Magnanimity.

Mario: 19:29

There you go. All right.

Creek: 19:30

Magnanimity, there it is. I don’t remember the question.

Mario: 19:39

We’re gonna title this episode, The one where Creek struggles with…

Creek: 19:43

Maga.

Mario: 19:46

So, let me touch on that. So this going from fantasizing about vengeance, from acting on vengeance to only fantasizing can be gateway. It can be a positive step. Kind of like the methadone of… for Eights, the psychological methadone. So that often is kind of like we talked about with María José and the One. I still see what's wrong, but I don't act on it. I don't feel the need to act on it.

And so that process is always going to be there. The Eight is always going to go to how could I get you back if I wanted to, but I'm not going to. So I don't know if that ever really goes away, but you're gonna have thoughts like that. But you just want to make sure that your mind is more filled with positive thoughts.

Creek: 20:44

María José, what's been the biggest learning curve of working with Mario as an Eight?

María José: 20:53

Um, that you need strength to deal with him. And that's my experience with all Eights, you just need to kind of stand your ground, but not so much…

Creek: 21:05

What type of strength?

María José: 21:07

I think it's to be able to say what you think, not fight for it enough so that you get heard, and not so much that you get pushed over. No, no, no, I'm maybe exaggerating it. But what I mean is that…

Mario: 21:29

Maybe

María José: 21:30

…you need to have a voice, that it's firm. It's being firm, I would say, so that you're respected, but then flexible enough when you see that that's a battle that they really want to fight and they will fight anyway. And unless it's a really big deal and I see a huge risk, I just let him play with that. I just let him do what he wants. Because it's like I pick my battles. And I see the value of releasing that energy for him. It's good for all of us. It's good that he has that energy.

And so that's another learning, he will, an Eight in general, push and have this energy or power that moves things forward, and we want that. So just like there is a gift for every type, with Eight, that energy, many of us around it kind of use it. It's useful. So he uses people, and the rest of the people, I think, we use Eights, because it's like the fuel many times.

Mario: 22:48

What I am looking for, and I think most Eights are looking for from other people is to just give it your best effort. We always joke about the scene in The Godfather when Johnny Fontaine is whining about, Oh, my career's over. And you know, they won't give me the role, blah, blah, blah. And Marlon Brando grabs him and shakes them and says, Be a man. And what he's looking for is try. I don't expect you to be able to accomplish everything. I will help you. But what I don't want to have to do is carry you.

So the Eight’s not looking for people to be as tough as they are, as strong as they are, as driven as they are, but I don't want you to be deadweight. I don't want you to be a drag on the system. I want you to try to the degree that you're capable of, and then I'll help you from there. But if you're just gonna sit and whine about it, well now, you're adding your problems to mine. And because I do feel responsible for the people around me. Even if they're not asking me to, I still do. So when you're just whining and not putting in effort, or not standing up for yourself—like María José said—well, now you're just pissing me off. And that makes me even more irritated than somebody disagreeing with me.

Creek: 24:21

When someone doesn't stand up for themselves, why does that piss you off?

Mario: 24:25

Because I think it's that issue of adding your problems to mine. And again, most Eight—if they're reasonably healthy—they’re there for other people. And I just can't help if somebody comes into my sphere of now feeling like they're under my dominion in some way. That magnanimity piece is okay, now I'm responsible for you, and there's a social contract here. I'll take responsibility for you, but you have to do your best.

Same with my children. I don't expect them to be able to do everything, but they better try. Because if they're not trying, now you're adding to my burden. And that just irritates me because it stops me from doing other things that I could be doing in a positive way.

The other thing is, I'll just add to this, because there was another element of what María José said, you need to stand up for your view. Because if you can't defend your view, then I don't trust it. You know, it's very much a, everything has to be proven. Okay, you have to be able to demonstrate what you're saying is accurate, that it'll work, that it’s been… that it's valid. So if you come to me and say, Oh, I think we should do it this way. And I say why? And you say, well, just because I want to. Well, don't waste my time. I've already thought through what I'm planning to do. And if you have a better argument, then I'll hear it, most of the time. But if you're just going to say, well, I haven't done the work, and so I'm not standing up for my point of view, well I just don't have time for that.

María José: 26:14

And your view can change tomorrow. But…

Mario: 26:17

It might, sure. Sure, absolutely. But at least I'll have a rationale for it.

María José: 26:23

Of course.

Mario: 26:24

Might not be a good one. Yeah, might not be a good one.

María José: 26:28

I’ll stand up for it.

Mario: 26:29

Yeah, exactly. Often wrong, but never uncertain.

Creek: 26:35

Oh gosh. Yeah.

María José: 26:37

That's something that troubles a lot of people when dealing with Eight. They’re so certain about their views, and then the views change. And they don't feel the need to explain or justify much. And it is what I want to do today. And it might be valid change. But it is so kind of… they’re so passionate or forceful about their views, that it's puzzling for other people that they change their mind. And it happened.

Creek: 27:15

So we're moving into the connecting points for Point Eight, that is the Five and the Two—striving to feel detached and striving to feel connected—very opposite connecting points. Give us a quick overview of those connecting points, Mario.

Mario: 27:33

Point Two, striving to feel connected, is what we call the neglected strategy. And we talked before, when we talked about the One, about how there is a logical contradiction embedded in this relationship. Meaning that if what I'm seeking is to feel powerful, then what I am going to want to do is limit my vulnerabilities in some way. One of the ways of limiting your vulnerabilities is limiting what you care about, who you care about, because each person you care about becomes a vulnerability.

When I was in college, I took some criminal justice courses. And one of them was taught by a former Philadelphia police sergeant. Huge guy, he was like 6’6”, you know, he's big. And he said, When I was young and first on the force, I was fearless, but then when I got married and started to have kids, I started to realize that now I have vulnerabilities. Because somebody might go after my family, and I have responsibilities to take care of them. And I get that. Whatever attachment I have has to be worth it from my perspective.

Now, and I know this sounds wacko for other people, but again, that is why there are different types, because different systems logic. So the striving to feel connected is something that the Eight looks at with caution—like the One looks at striving to feel excited with caution—and says, Well, if I do this, I could lose something. So I do it carefully. And there are times when I don't do it when I should. I should have more empathy for people. I should have more sympathy for people. I should show kindness to people, but I don't. So I tend to neglect that.

Now, again, we all know and as we've already established, if you're inside the circle with the Eight, it's a good place to be. They can connect with people. My wife, my kids love me. I love them, so there's strong connections there. So there's positive aspects of it and not. I think a lot of Eights too have the ability to really make people want to connect with them—not those people who have dysfunctional fears of Eights due to bad experiences in the past—but there is something about Eights that people gravitate toward, that feeling of being looked after and protected and inspired, and so forth.

So the contradiction, because of this rejection of Point Two, of this connection, is that Eights often don't feel like they have people around them who can take care of them when they need it. So they can become kind of needy and demanding, because every once in a while, it's like, man, I'm doing all this for everybody. Well, what about me? So you know what, you need to take care of me for a while. And they can become very demanding that way, and needy in that way.

Yeah, so Eights view themselves as having to make hard decisions about things. If I'm responsible for taking care of the things in the world around me, I need to make tough decisions. And sometimes those decisions hurt other people. Sometimes I have to make decisions about what my kids can and can't do, what they can and can't have, and I know they're going to be upset. And if I give into my feelings every time, then I'm not going to be a good parent. If I'm running a business, I may have to lay people off at times. I'm gonna have to fire people. And it's for the good of the whole, for the good of the company, but it's going to hurt that person.

So one way to deal with the knowledge that somebody is going to be hurt is just to detach emotionally, to shut it out. And so it becomes a support strategy. I feel more powerful when I'm able to detach. Now, and sometimes it's good, because we have to be able to set our feelings aside. Other times, it can lead to a bit of a cruelty, because you become less than human to me. You're not a real person. What is one of the things that every military does when they go to battle, they dehumanize the other side. They come up with nicknames for them, derogative nicknames. And it is a way of dehumanizing the other so that I can kill them. I can't kill you if you're a person, but I can kill you if you’re whatever label I stick on you.

Eight can do the same thing of dehumanizing people by detaching from them emotionally, so they can be harsher on them. It's one of the reasons why Eights give nicknames to people, or purposefully distort their name in some way, because if I give you a nickname, I'm controlling you. I'm dominating you. That's how it works.

María José: 33:03

There's something about Type Eight that in their desire to feel powerful, in their desire to move things forward, and this mindset of seeing people as resources that will aid my purpose, and the strength they have, I think it's hard for them to understand how people feel around them. So it's hard for them to see that not everyone is like them. I mean, we know and this is valid for all types, but if they're strong, if they want to hear things last, they are the truth, and they want to challenge themselves, they feel that everyone is like that.

So they sometimes exert more energy than people can take, and they demand in a tone that sometimes is very declarative and bossy, which helps at times and doesn't help other times. And it's like demanding things from people that some people feel they cannot deliver on. And that could feel abusive, which is the blind spot of the Eight, it’s these requests of people—and that it's implicit in how they interact at times—that people feel like it's more than they can give. And it could be the tone. It could be whatever they're asking. It could be what you said about nicknames that could be not very flattering.

It's different things in the way that they exert these power, which feels abusive, and I was going to say a bit abusive, but sometimes it's very abusive. Sometimes it's a bit abusive. Sometimes it doesn't feel at all like that. But when it happens, I believe that it's because of that. They just don't understand how they come across, the impact they have on people.

Mario: 35:10

I’ll share an example of that. We had put out these little infographics a while ago about the blind spots of each of the types. And I posted the blind spot of the Eight, the abusiveness thing on social media, and it found its way into some Enneagram forum, and a lot of people were really taking exception to Eights being abusive, primarily Eights. And mostly, it was primarily Eight women.

And they were all saying, Oh, no, I'm not abusive, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then I watched the conversation work its way back to all of them admitting, Yeah, well, I kind of do that, in exactly the ways that María José’s talking about. I'm not intending to be abusive, but it's the outcome of some of these things that I do, of making other people feel abused.

María José: 36:07

And I tried to be careful with this, it’s what I do, and the problem is how you feel about it, because I think that that sometimes makes people not take responsibility over it. I think that once you understand, and I'm not saying that you behave that way, but want to be careful with it, because once you are not blind to it, it's your responsibility to take care of it and not do it, not overdo your strategy in a way that makes people feel abused.

Creek: 36:36

My first interactions with certain Eights, obviously, I mean, it can be a lot, like you said María José, to just kind of handle the amount of energy that's coming at you. But I think as I kind of got to know my friends who are Eights more, it actually became a source of, Oh, that's such a foreign way for me to be in the world. Where it's like leaning forward and assertive, and just what if I didn't care? What if I just did what I wanted to do.

And that's been a real… it's actually been a really great source of like, it's taught me how to be assertive, and how to just what if you just do it and then deal with whatever happens afterwards. It's not always the best thing to do, but it goes against a lot of what I’m more patterned to do. So it's often a different outcome, and it's often like a fine outcome.

Mario: 37:32

You know, that's a really interesting point, and I think it is that valuable thing. One of the things I'm always telling my sons is, There are no rules in life. There is nobody telling you, You can't be this. You can't be that. You can't do this. You can't do that. I mean, obviously, there are laws and that sort of thing, but the world's an open opportunity. You can go where you want. You can go see the world if you want. You can build a business if you want. You can write a book, if you want. You can do whatever you want.

And the world might stop you, or you might fail at what you're trying to achieve, but don't ever lean back and think, Oh, I can't do that, because I just am not supposed to, or I'm not allowed to or anything like that. It is that sort of leaning forward into opportunity, into experience into sensation in some way that I think is the takeaway from what the Eight brings to the world.

Creek: 38:41

It's never more clear than when I watched Eight friends of how much and how deeply they feel and want to have an effect on the world in the way that they feel like is the best way to do that. And that can be good and bad. But…

Mario: 38:58

Even if it's by wiping out half of all living species like Thanos in the Marvel movies, right? No, it’s the right way thing to do by killing them.

Creek: 39:04

Right, and that's inspiring. Well, not Thanos but yeah. I think if we look past the amount of energy and the kind of what can be perceived as bullish nature of an Eight and see it more as inspiration to have an effect on the world, I think that's that reframes Eightness, at least for me, in a way that's much more enjoyable.

María José: 39:42

And, you know, when I'm coaching clients who have Eights around them, and they say, Oh, but he's so demanding, or she's so this and I said, Look, this person is talking to you, and it's challenging you, that’s because they care. Worry when they're not talking to you. That’s when you need to worry about it.

When they are ignoring you. That is the worst they can do with about you. But if they're challenging you, it's a good thing. It's their way to show that they care about you, that they think that you can, that you're capable.

Mario: 40:19

That's a really good point. If if the Eight is ignoring you, then you have a problem.

Creek: 40:25

Run. Great, well, it feels like a great stopping point for this episode. Listener, hopefully you're walking away with a deeper sense and not so much fear around your Eight friends. They're just big teddy bears with lots of energy.

Mario: 40:48

And really big claws.

Creek: 40:54

Alright, so thanks for listening, and we will talk to you next week.

Mario: 40:58

So long.

María José: 40:59

Cheers

Creek: 41:02

Thanks for listening to the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. If you're interested in more information or talking to Mario, MJ or myself, feel free to reach out to us through the links in the show notes or by emailing info@awarenesstoaction.com. All episode transcriptions and further information can be found at awarenesstoaction.com/podcast.