Striving to Feel Connected (Enneagram Type Two)

Creek: 00:01

Welcome back to another episode of Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. My name is Creek and joined with me here today is Mario Sikora and María José Munita. And we have a wonderful guest on today, Lindsey Marks, who is actually a co-host of the Fathoms podcast that I'm also a part of. So the room is full of friends today. Lindsey, how you doing?

Lindsey: 00:25

I'm great. I'm really happy to be here with you guys. Good to see you, Mario and MJ.

Creek: 00:29

Awesome.

Mario: 00:30

It's good to see you. We're happy to have you here. And again, Fathoms is riding our coattails.

Lindsey: 00:35

Absolutely.

Mario: 00:37

They’re doing anything they can to get their people onto our show. To boost their image to our seven or eight listeners.

Creek: 00:47

Shall we look at the numbers?

María José: 00:50

Why bother? I mean, that's your details.

Mario: 00:55

Why do you think we keep having Fathoms people on, Creek?

María José: 00:59

Because we liked them.

Creek: 01:01

Before this call, Lindsay asked me to not ask her a specific question.

Lindsey: 01:06

Don't do it.

Creek: 01:06

Which I’m not going to do. It was going to be what are like three interesting things about yourself, but she hates that question.

Lindsey: 01:12

No. Worst question ever.

Creek: 01:20

So Lindsay, you're a musician? Correct?

Lindsey: 01:22

Yeah.

Creek: 01:23

Yeah. And tell us what you do with music.

Lindsey: 01:26

So I'm a music educator primarily. And I own a music studio with my husband, Samuel. And we teach private music lessons in vocal coaching, piano, drums and guitar. There's a little bit of songwriting and theory, sight reading, audition prep, music, theater, that kind of stuff all sprinkled in.

And we're just building a really wonderful community here in Michigan, in the USA, and we really love our people. And we love what we're doing with music. It's great.

Creek: 02:02

And are you accepting new students

Lindsey: 02:04

Always. Virtually and in person.

Creek: 02:07

Always. All right, and where can people sign up for these lessons?

Lindsey: 02:14

Oh, nice. I didn't know I was gonna get a plug here. You c can find us on Facebook, Marks Music Studio. Our most recent winter recital just got posted. And it was great. It was my favorite one yet.

Creek: 02:27

Wow, what was so good about it?

Lindsey: 02:30

Oh, we just had such a great mix of ages. We had two sets of grandmother and granddaughter performers in the same recital. So that tells you a little bit about the ages of our community, and also we had every instrument represented. So music lessons for little kids, especially recitals, they tend to be really heavy piano.

So you hear like 7,000 5 year olds play Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. But this recital is like we've been in the community long enough, and we've established a presence and so we have more advanced musicians coming through. And so our recitals are just getting more robust and expanding in range and dynamic. It's really exciting.

Creek: 03:18

Last last question, what is your favorite Christmas movie?

Lindsey: 03:22

While You Were Sleeping with Sandra Bullock. Easy answer.

Creek: 03:26

I’ve never heard of that.

Mario: 03:28

That’s the one when she’s in a coma, right?

Lindsey: 03:28

It’s my favorite. My mom and I watch it together every… He is in a coma.

Mario: 03:33

Oh, he’s in a coma. Okay.

Lindsey: 03:35

Yes. Uh huh. It's a wonderful movie. And also, I know this is an unpopular opinion, but the Christmas Story. A Christmas Story. It's like, every Christmas I have to watch that. It's not necessarily my favorite, but I feel obligated to watch it every Christmas.

Creek: 03:52

All right.

Mario: 03:53

So we are just a few days before Christmas here. So it's a relevant question. I'm going to put in my vote for Elf for Best Christmas movie.

Lindsey: 04:00

Yes, that's a great one. That's a great one.

María José: 04:03

Interesting.

Creek: 04:05

I struggle with new Christmas things. Like Christmas needs to be nostalgic to me, and I respect Elf, but I’m not sure I can put it in the canon just yet. Yeah.

Mario: 04:20

Gotcha.

Lindsey: 04:21

I'm kind of the opposite. I really don't get into like White Christmas or any of those older Christmas movies. I just can’t.

Creek: 04:28

So that's all the time we have today, Lindsey. Thanks for hopping on. You insulted Bing Crosby. I don't know. I don’t know how to handle that.

Lindsey: 04:38

I did not. I did not.

María José: 04:41

No, we don't watch Christmas movies before Christmas. It's interesting that culturally…

Creek: 04:27

You watch them after Christmas?

María José: 04:41

Well, we just don't. It's not something you do here. It's summer. There's a lot to do. It's the end of the school year. So no time for Christmas movies.

And I really enjoyed the new series about Christmas. And it's called I Hate Christmas. It's a series, an Italian series shot in Venice. And it's really beautiful. I love it. And as you would hope, she ends up loving Christmas, but it's called, I Hate Christmas.

Creek: 05:28

Is it in Italian?

María José: 05:30

It is Italian.

Mario: 05:31

And I just want to thank Lindsay for pointing out that Michigan is in the United States, given the worldwide popularity of the podcast. Not everybody might realize that.

Creek: 05:42

Right. Exactly. Mario, why don't you go ahead and take us into what we're talking about today?

Mario: 05:47

Yeah. Well, we have Lindsey on just because we like her, but it also coincides with the fact that we're going to be talking about the Enneagram Type Two today, which we call Striving to Feel Connected. And Lindsay is an Enneagram Type Two. Navigating subtype, I believe you told us, right, Lindsay?

Lindsey: 06:07

Yes, Navigating Two.

Mario: 06:10

All right, great. The Type Two, Striving to Feel Connected, is somebody, who like the name would imply, is motivated by a desire to feel connected to people. Now a lot of the literature about Two refers to them as being helpers. People who try to do things for others and who are selfless and sacrificing and so forth.

It's our experience that those qualities are a way of feeling connected to people. That the chief motivator there is this desire to feel an emotional bond in some way, and that plays itself out differently in the three different subtypes.

Preserving Two uses the striving to feel connected to get their preserving needs met. The Navigating Two uses striving to feel connected to get their navigating needs met. If I know who all the right players are, if I know who all the people are, if I have relationships with them, I'll be able to better navigate the environment.

Jumping back to the Preserving Two, if I'm connected to people, I'll be sure that there's somebody there to help me take care of my needs. And very often, they form reciprocal relationships with people. They do like to help people and they help people in the, again, the preserving domain.

The Transmitting domain gets their transmitting needs met by striving to feel connected. So this is kind of the most assertive and I’d say seductive of the Twos, who is very much more expressive, more outgoing, more around connection. María José, you were talking about a recent experience with a Transmitting Two. Why don’t you say a little more about that.

María José: 07:48

Yesterday. Yeah, I was thinking about it. Yesterday, I was at a meeting. I will not say much, I mean more details, because around her.

Mario: 07:58

Give the person’s name. Go ahead.

María José: 08:01

No. Listen to the podcast. But she convinced me that I wanted to do something that I didn't. And I did it with her, you know? And I was like, why am I doing this? If I don't want to, but I just didn't find a way to say no. And anyway, it's that seductiveness and that's strength, I think that there's something and we will see it with the connecting points at Point Eight. There is some strength and kind of power that comes through the Two.

Mario: 08:41

Yeah, the Transmitting Two often gets misidentified as Eight or that's a common mistyping, particularly men. María José and I have a good friend who believes he's an Eight, but we just see screaming Transmitting Two. But it is an assertive character. It's more assertive than the other versions of the Two for sure.

The Two is a type that often I find it easier to identify Twos who are women than I do Twos who are men. And I think part of that is because it's against the stereotype of a male, particularly in the United States, to be a Two. And it's more fitting with the stereotype of how women are supposed to be that makes it easier to see them as Twos.

And I would suggest that a lot of women misidentify themselves as Twos based on the more superficial descriptions, especially if they're mothers or homemakers, that sort of thing. They immediately put themselves into that role. Just like frequently they put themselves into a preserving role, even if they're not preservers.

María José: 10:01

There are other things about the Two that go beyond helping. And they're really good at saying nice things about people: how you look, how you behave. Just highlighting what's good about you, which makes you feel good about it, and then makes you feel connected to that person. So there are several things that Two's do that not only help other people, but make you feel connected with them.

Creek: 10:30

Lindsey, what would you… I know you do a little bit of Enneagram teaching and coaching. When someone asks you to describe the Two, how do you go about doing that?

Lindsey: 10:40

I feel like it… this has shifted a lot for me since going through the Awareness to Action training, because I have found that the part about wanting to feel connected is the truest thing, I think, about a Two's motivation. And so it's changed over time.

When I first started teaching, I would talk about Twos as people who were interested in serving others, busy doing for others. But now I tend to think about it more as it's like a busyness of the heart, I think, trying to connect. And it's just unconscious. You walk into a room, and it's like, Who can I connect with? Who can meet this need that I have to feel this deep heart connection to this space I'm in right now, to my family, to the world at large, right? It just can kind of get bigger and bigger.

But yeah, so I think that is how I describe it now, is it someone who wants to feel connected to others who gets a sense of peace and security out of feeling like they have their people. They know who their people are and their hearts are in it together.

María José: 11:58

So Lindsey, tell us about how you discovered the Enneagram and how you discovered your type.

Lindsey: 12:05

So I was on a spiritual retreat in the Chicagoland area about six years ago. And it was a particularly low point in my life in pretty much every aspect of my life. So I was retreating to try to find some stillness and reconnect with myself with the Divine and just my own thoughts and feelings. And everyone at this retreat was talking about the Enneagram.

And as a Navigator, I was like, hold on, something is happening that everyone knows about, and I don't and that's not acceptable. I need to like get on the inside of this thing. So I think I was very motivated by that navigating instinct to find out about the Enneagram because everyone around me is into it.

My husband and I got home from that retreat, and we ordered the Riso-Hudson tests, and we were both, you know, just weeping like reading about our types. And it brought a lot of clarification to some…

Mario: 13:08

In a good way or bad way? When you say you were weeping.

Lindsey: 13:11

Both. Really both.

Yeah, there was a lot of like apologizing to each other for you know, at this point, we'd been married for nearly 10 years. And it was like, all these things that felt like, we couldn't figure out why we kept hitting the same obstacles.

Light started to shine on those things. And it felt so relieving and gave a lot of hope to us in a really dark season of life. Kind of illuminated a path forward for us.

Creek: 13:41

That's beautiful.

Lindsey: 13:43

And we've been perfect ever since. No problems.

María José: 13:47

Well, after the episode, you can tell us how you did that.

Mario: 13:53

As the same goes after the enlightenment, the laundry.

María José: 13:59

So what made you think… What were the key things that made you believe that you were a Two?

Lindsey: 14:06

I think the thing that really sealed the deal for me is that I really believe with everything in me that love is the answer to everything. And when I found that that's not exclusive to Twos, I think people all across the Enneagram spectrum feel strongly about love and empathy and compassion.

But I think particularly for Twos just this wholehearted commitment to compassion, empathy. And this belief that if you just love people, everything can be healed. The whole world can change. I was like, yeah, that's me.

Mario: 14:54

You made a comment about being on this retreat to connect with yourself. Say more about that. This idea of connecting with yourself versus connecting with other people.

Lindsey: 15:07

Woo. Don’t get me crying today, Mario.

Creek: 15:12

It wouldn't be a Two podcast without it.

Lindsey: 15:16

I think that this was a piece of the puzzle that was missing for me for most of my life. Because that's how all of us really develop into our style. Is whatever kind of gets affirmed over and over and applauded over and over, you go, Oh okay, so that's what's going to secure my survival. So yeah, my context was just very affirming of putting others before yourself. And I really leaned so hard into that, that I lost myself for a long time. And it's only been in the last few years, I think, that that consciously making an effort to love myself first.

And even every time I say that out loud or thinking to myself, I have this voice in my head that says, Oh, that selfish. That's wrong. And I have to quiet that voice and say no, it's the only way you can love others well. You have to start with yourself. And so making that a priority, even going against that programming from my culture, especially as a female, that tells me that the noble heroic way of life is to always put others before yourself.

It's literally made me sick, like it has literally made me physically sick, to not love myself well. And to not be connected to my needs and my desires, and my longings. So like physically sick, heart sick, heartbroken, this is not a way to be in the world. And this is not a way to be the kind of presence that I think I truly want to be in the world and for the people that I love.

And so just remembering and reminding myself that connecting to myself, deeply unconditionally loving myself first, is what is going to bring me the kind of deep connection that I long for with others.

Mario: 17:27

The piece of advice I always give the Twos that I work with is to think about when you're on the airplane, and they tell you that if there's a loss of cabin pressure, the masks are going to come down, and you have to put your own your own on first before you help anybody else. And that's a good metaphor for Twos. I can't help you if I pass out from lack of oxygen.

And I'll never forget one woman in the Middle East who is a Two. And I use that analogy with her. And she said, Oh, I could never do that. I would have to help other people put their masks on first. And I said, Yeah, but you'll pass out and you'll die.

Lindsey: 18:04

You’ll die.

Mario: 18:04

And she said Oh, that doesn’t matter. Yeah, she said it doesn't matter. I just could never put my own on first. Yeah, which was interesting. But it shows you how deeply embedded this is.

Lindsey: 18:15

I think you bring up such a good point. I think that that really highlights the Two's propensity towards pride. There are things that sound really noble. And it's just complete… it's a complete illusion. It's a complete illusion to think that you can truly honestly love others well without loving yourself.

María José: 18:37

So for many Twos, they can maybe hear, I mean, think about it, but it it is a very foreign thing to experience in your world. How does it look like to put yourself first?

Lindsey: 18:55

Right now, it looks like a lot of listening to my physical cues, and listening to that over and above the compulsive urge to connect, or be social, or give of myself, to really listen to what my body is saying, to rest or to pull back, to guard, conserve or contain, I think is a good word too. So there are cues that happened for me physically that I'm learning to key into and really listen to. And I'm also developing a practice of asking myself when I'm about to engage with another person.

Just checking in why? Why am I doing this? Is it authentic? Or is it compulsive from a place of insecurity? And if I feel like my answer is, you know, I'm doing this because I'm insecure about this connection, and I just want to just touch base, just touch base, keep that connection there, then I will step back. And I'll just wait.

And a lot of times, the moment will pass, and I'll realize I didn't really need to reach out. That person has a support system. They're doing okay without me. I don't need to reach and extend in that direction. But practicing that containment long enough to just wait for the truest answer to rise to the surface, instead of the compulsive one. Does that make sense?

Creek: 20:30

What are… If you don't mind sharing, what are some of those cues that you speak of?

Lindsey: 20:36

A lot of times, one cue is like sort of a rapid brain. It feels like my brain is kind of racing about a particular situation or person. And for me, that's a fear signal. So it can also just feel like exhaustion. Just physical exhaustion. I think embarrassment too. You know, now that I think about it. I think humiliation, embarrassment, shame, even like this feeling that I've done something wrong, and I need to fix it. You know?

And most of the time, if I just wait, that feeling passes, but I'm a person who will go to my husband, like four times a day and be like, are you mad at me? Are you mad at me? You were quiet. I came in the door, and you didn't run over to me and hug me? Are you mad at me? Are you mad at me? Are we okay? So learning to be still when I feel that fear and that compulsion and be like, is something really wrong that I need to address? Or am I just hyper engaged in striving to connect? And then I can kind of chill out. And I know that people in my life appreciate it when I chill out.

Mario: 22:00

You know, it's funny. My reaction to what Lindsey is saying just reminds me of how foreign the other types can feel to us and how illogical, right?

María José: 22:11

I was thinking how there are nine kinds of crazy.

Mario: 22:14

Yeah, right.

Lindsey: 22:15

Yeah!

Mario: 22:17

Oh, you know, we talked about the logic of the type. And from the inside, what Lindsey’s saying makes complete sense. But to me, I just keep thinking, what's the matter with you? Of course, you have to love yourself before you can love other people. Again, to me, it seems obvious. Just like things that feel like a revelation to me, other people say, What do you mean it's good to be nice to people? No kidding, didn’t you learn that when you were four, right? Well, no, I didn’t. I'm learning it now.

And so this is a great example of something that the Two has to come to realize and how a specific logic can lead to a whole cascade of behaviors. So what you're saying is wonderful. It’s just so foreign to me.

Creek: 23:11

It feels like a really great transition point into the connecting points of Eight and Four. Eight being “Striving to Feel powerful.” Four being “Striving to Feel Unique or Distinct.”

María José: 23:23

That’s your word, Creek.

Creek: 23:28

So Lindsey, how do you see those connecting points show up in your life, both adaptively and maladaptively?

Lindsey: 23:36

So I guess I'll start with Point Eight. I have noticed that I can really under do—under do is that a word?

Creek: 23:48

It is now. You said it.

Lindsey: 23:48

I can neglect boundaries that I need. And then when I realized that I need a boundary, I will like, jump over the line, like way overdo it. So people are like, whoa, what's happening. And I'm like, I am setting a boundary. I am speaking up for myself. And so that, of course, would be like a maladaptive example of me just way too much force, because I've neglected it for so long. So bringing that into balance looks like practicing presents. So I'm not getting to the point where there's this huge deficit for me, that I feel this compulsion to fill very rapidly with really strong boundaries.

And then I guess for Point Four, I sort of feel as a musician that this is where my creativity kind of emerges. Well, I think Eight too/ I think my songwriting especially tends to be very Eight-ish. It's very justice oriented, and I want to express the need for everyone to, you know, my songwriting coach told me that my songwriting can feel very preachy. So it's like that very strong Eight-ish voice of like, we need to do this and it needs to happen now.

Creek: 25:19

Love or else.

Lindsey: 25:21

Exactly. Right. So yeah, I also find that because my husband is a Four, that when I feel secure in my connections, I feel like I can actually individuate. So there's an insecurity that leads to like this merging. But then when I feel connected, I actually feel like I can individuate and express myself in my own unique way.

Mario: 25:53

We do both of them adaptively and maladaptively. We don't just go to one connecting point, good ways, the other in bad ways.

Lindsey: 26:00

As far as like a maladaptive way of going to the Four, I can feel sometimes, again, when I've haven't taken the time to really think about my own wants and needs and desires, then I'll go really hard into individuating. And it's like, I want everyone to leave me alone. I feel this anxiousness for everyone to leave me alone for a while, so that I can get in touch with my feelings.

So I can like feel them all the way down to the bottom. Like, figure out what it is that I'm experiencing or feeling. Cry about it, rage about it, whatever I need to do to sort of have that cathartic emotional experience. And then I can feel better. And so I feel like I'm trying to practice ways of engaging that more passionate part of my heart, the depths of my heart, in a way that doesn't feel like I just like dive into the deep end and kind of drowned for a few days.

Creek: 26:58

Would you say like, self pity, and that sort of thing? Being in that area?

Lindsey: 27:02

Yeah. Actually, yeah, which actually really is a great partner for the martyrdom of a Two, right?

Mario: 27:11

María José, you know, we coach people who are Twos. Talk, if you would, a little bit about—you’ve probably worked with more Twos than I have. They just don't like me, so… Come to think about it, there's a lot of types I haven’t coached all that. No, I’m kidding. But talk particularly around the connecting points.

María José: 27:35

It's funny, because I tend to think about female Twos. I think that the main trait that comes to mind is how they kind of avoid being on the frontline, being the number one, and they feel so much better being the person supporting the number one. Although they're leading, and they're doing whatever they want. It's not like they're hiding and just doing what people say. They are influencing, but from the second line.

And when you think about the connecting point, and Type Four, I would say that it's these angry martyr that we talked about it. It’s I'm doing all these efforts. You are there because I've been doing all these things, and I'm not acknowledged. People don't recognize all my efforts. So there's something about that, that I see in Twos sometimes. And there's also the strength that I was talking about before. They're pushy. I mean, they are going to get away with their agenda.

I'm not coaching her, but I have a friend who's a Navigating Two that I kind of worked with in an nonprofit endeavor that we share. And she and I, we just think we manage everything. We make all decisions, but from behind, not on the front line. So there's this decide to control things.

And the other thing about Type Four, their relationship with Type Four, that it's the neglected strategy, we call the contradiction. It's generosity versus envy. And there's something about wanting to give everything for everyone, but then…

Mario: 29:34

Being pissed off about it.

María José: 29:36

Being pissed off because I want to be like they are. I want to get…

Mario: 29:39

I want what you have.

María José: 29:41

I want to get the attention that you have. I want to get the acknowledgement that you have. But I don't want to ask for it. I don't want to seem like I need it and that pisses them off.

Mario: 29:53

You know, and what's interesting to me as we're talking about these things, is that all of these things sort of go away when we work on what skillful connections. The thing I always go back to when I'm working with Twos is just, let's go back to this conversation about boundaries.

Let's make sure we're setting effective skillful boundaries, and boundaries are not walls. It's not, okay, I have to put up this barrier to keep you away from me because a Two is never going to do that. And it's not what we want anyway. We want a boundary that says, Okay, this is my space, that's your space. You know, sometimes I'll come into your space. Sometimes you come into my space, but we do it in healthy, not codependent ways.

And when you do that, all the dysfunction we see at the connecting points kind of goes away. Because I'm saying, well, here's what I want. Here's who I am. The Two struggles to say, here's who I am. And that's where the uniqueness related to Point Four comes across. I'm not saying, Hey, I am my own unique person. I am who you want me to be. I'm giving away my identity to be who I want you to be, unlike the Four who keeps trying to change every word to fit their own specific interpretation to themselves, Creek.

María José: 31:20

Don’t hide. Don’t hide. Own it.

Mario: 31:26

Yeah, so when we get into balance around this issue, all that other stuff goes away. The connection to point A is, you know, if you're not connected to me, I'm gonna make you connect to me. And they can devolve into this sort of Kathy Bates in “Misery” thing, where I'm going to chain James Caan to the bed and smash his ankles with a hammer.

Lindsey: 31:48

Oh, my gosh, that is so horribly true.

Mario: 31:55

You know, so it's all about focusing on getting that what does it mean to be connected in adaptive ways? As it is with all the other times.

Lindsey: 32:07

I did see a meme recently, actually, that said, that that was someone's favorite Christmas movie or something. What a great Christmas movie. It was just, like a picture of her feeding him soup in the bed.

Mario: 32:23

A double feature of I Hate Christmas and Misery for the dysfunctional family Christmas.

María José: 32:29

So with all the types, we talk about the blind spots, which are things that we know we do, but we're not completely aware of how people feel about it. What's the impact on other people. In the case of Type Two, it's demandingness. So how do you experience that? How do you feel that you expect things from people and how they feel about it?

Lindsey: 32:56

I have experienced it, particularly in my intimate relationships with my husband and my children. The most, I think, I'm grateful that we're cultivating a space in our home where even my children are starting to speak up and say, when they feel a little bit overwhelmed by my expectations, and so…

My oldest son, he's 11, and he recently said to me, I feel like you just want me to do everything your way, and you're not listening to what I want. And that really brought tears to my eyes. And, of course, he thought he'd hurt me and I had to, I'm not hurt, you're fine. I appreciate what you've said to me. Like, this is good for me to hear. I need to know, I want to know how you're feeling because I love you. I just don't want to make you feel that way. So I'm sorry. What can we do? How can we work on this together?

So I think that especially coming at this Christmas season, I was really conscious of not wanting to impose on my ideas about what the tradition needed to be in our home. And so being flexible. Because I'm very sentimental. I want to make memories that helped me feel connected to my people for years to come. And so I can be very controlling and demanding around our traditions in our home.

And I just kind of let that go this year. And I just let the kids suggest, well, let's watch a movie while we decorate the tree which I actually hate doing. Like, no, I want to be fully present to the experience we're having together around the tree. I don't want your attention to be elsewhere. Well, what's the harm in that? Let's explore this, and actually ended up being really fun and wonderful and freeing for me to not demand that everyone come into line with my idea about what this connecting experience should look like.

Mario: 34:58

I'm gonna make you enjoy this if it kills you.

Lindsey: 35:01

Yeah.

Creek: 35:04

So as we begin to close out this episode, we wanted to touch on one more thing. And for all listening, this is not the complete guide to Two-ness, and none of these episodes are complete guides to how to understand insert-type-here. We'll be talking about the instinctual biases, the subtypes, all of those sorts of things, in episodes to come. So consider this an appetizer to the types. So this last…

Mario: 35:35

You just need to get a better guest than Lindsey next time when we talk about the Two. No, I’m just teasing. It’s me and my cruelness. I mean, I just can’t help myself. It's awful. I'm a horrible person. I know, Lindsey, you know, I love you.

Lindsey: 35:49

It's starting to be endearing a little.

María José: 35:53

And it’s says more about you, Mario, than her.

Mario: 35:55

I know it does. I know.

María José: 32:58

People can see through that.

Mario: 35:55

Lindsey’s wonderful.

Creek: 36:03

So the last topic we're going to address here is the potential misconceptions. And we've already talked about a few, the description of the helpers, often not as accurate, as it is claimed to be. So starting with Lindsey, what are the some misconceptions that drive you up the wall when you hear people speak about Twos?

Lindsey: 36:25

I think that one thing that drives me crazy is when Twos are painted as people who constantly want to be doing things for others, like physically doing things for others, I've not found that to be true for myself, at all. I actually really, really like just being with a person.

And so there's that, you know, in like Christian scripture, there's that Mary Martha story, where this one sister is in the kitchen, and she's preparing food for everybody. And the other sister is sitting at the feet of the Christ, just soaking in the presence of everybody. And she goes in, and she's like, tell my sister to help me in the kitchen.

And I feel like that's how Twos are painted is like, I'm over here doing all this work, and no one's helping me. And that can be true, but only if you're in that model of an Enneagram Two that's like the helper, the giver. When you think about striving to connect, then you see the person who just wants to be sitting in the living room, soaking in everybody's laughter and making inside jokes and leaving the the evening with all these great memories. And feeling like everyone is their new best friend.

So I really resonate a lot more with that portrayal of a Two than someone who's just constantly busy looking for something to do.

María José: 37:56

Yeah, that may be that. Also has to do with the subtypes and with the instinctual biases and a Preserving Two might be in the kitchen, doing those things for other people, and that would be their way to connect. And Navigating Two doesn't want to miss any part of the action there and wants to see what's going on and be with the people creating bonds. And that's a different way to connect. And I think that's an important distinction because a vitriol mainly talks about I think, Preserving Two and not about Transmitting Twos or Navigating Twos.

Mario: 38:33

Yes, just to add to the myth and misconception, one of the things that I see is that people think Twos are kind of pushovers and don't have any backbone, that they're compliant. This is, again, one of the reasons that I really don't like the so-called Hornevian triads because, I know lots of Twos who are really just not that compliant. I mean, they're really strong-willed, really aggressive, and yeah, they do want to connect, but they can be very aggressive about it, and going after what they want.

So, for me, I think it's really a misunderstanding of Twos to think that they're just going to comply with whatever it is that other people want them to do. María José, would you add anything to that? Myths and misconceptions?

María José: 39:21

They're not nice all the time. No, look, I think that when you asked about coaching, and the thing that comes to mind, which I don't know if it's really a misconception, but it might be a misconception they have about themselves, that they are not leader material. I think they are. They just need to believe it. That's an important misconception that I try to work with when I'm coaching clients.

Creek: 39:52

The great thing that I love, this isn't necessarily a misconception or myth, but the Twos that have done really great work, I feel like I can sink into the safe place without being suffocated. And I can feel safe and I can feel seen and not feel like I'm gonna have to claw my way back out. Which I've had experiences on both ends of that. So, Lindsey, you'd be in the healthy category of that. Last question, Lindsey, what is one thing you would like people to know about your type?

Lindsey: 40:28

It's kind of two things, but they go together. For me, I don't know if all Twos are like this, but I think it's safe to say that Twos have much quicker access to their emotional world than other points on the Enneagram.

And for me, that means that I cry very easily. Maybe not all Twos express their emotions through tears easily, but I think that it's really important for people to know that my tears don't mean something is wrong. They don't mean you've done something wrong or that you've hurt me. They just mean that I'm having an emotion, and this is how I'm expressing it. I need to have an emotional release. I cannot keep it inside. I will literally explode. I have to release that emotion somehow. And for me, that's through tears. For other Twos, it might be different, but I want people to be okay with my emotional expression.

And two, I think that's one of the greatest gifts you can give a Two, is to just show them that their emotional expressions are okay, and that you're not going to be shut off. You’re not going to close down. And I realized that that means other people have to be doing their work too. Because I know my tears are triggers for people who have emotional repression. And so while I cannot be responsible for their work, I can't stifle my own emotional life and my emotional vitality, because someone else has triggers around emotions. Like I can be sensitive to it, but if you love a Two, if you care about a Two, do what you can do to make them know and help them to be safe when they're emotionally expressing themselves, affirm their emotional range.

Mario: 42:29

As we wrap up here, I just want to say, Lindsey, thank you so much for joining us. And I know I was teasing you earlier, but having gotten to know you over the about 6,000 weeks of the training program, I found you to be somebody who kind of had a stance and was also open and inquisitive and engaged with content, even when it felt different and foreign to you. So I just think that you're a model of somebody who is actually doing the work that we're talking about and not just talking about it. And I think that showed with what you were sharing with us today. So I truly am thankful to have you on the on the program today.

Lindsey: 43:16

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. It has been a pleasure to learn from both of you. I respect you so much. So thank you for all that you've poured into my life. It's really changed me for the better.

Creek: 43:32

Thanks for listening to the Awareness to Action Enneagram podcast. If you're interested in more information or talking to Mario, MJ or myself, feel free to reach out to us through the links in the show notes or by emailing info@awarenesstoaction.com. All episode transcriptions and further information can be found at awarenesstoaction.com/podcast.